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      1 From michael+sup@stapelberg.de  Mon Feb  6 15:45:56 2012
      2 From: michael+sup@stapelberg.de (Michael Stapelberg)
      3 Date: Mon, 06 Feb 2012 20:45:56 +0000
      4 Subject: [sup-devel] [Heliotrope/Turnsole] How to use IMAP?
      5 In-Reply-To: <1326155913-turnsole-58321@terminus-est>
      6 References: <1326062741-sup-6469@stapelberg.de>
      7 	<1326155913-turnsole-58321@terminus-est>
      8 Message-ID: <1328560984-sup-7904@stapelberg.de>
      9 
     10 Hi William,
     11 
     12 Excerpts from William Morgan's message of 2012-01-10 00:40:56 +0000:
     13 > I need to write some code to do this. For IMAP and GMail, heliotrope-add will
     14 > keep a pointer to thelast message imported, by default. For mbox there is a
     15 > trick you can use. But there's nothing for maildir right now. Please file
     16 > an issue so that I don't forget this!
     17 It?s been four weeks, and https://github.com/wmorgan/heliotrope/issues/32 is
     18 still open. Just to let you know: This is what?s stopping me from using
     19 heliotrope+turnsole and possibly participating in its development at the moment
     20 :-/.
     21 
     22 If it?s a task which is too big for your current spare time, could you please
     23 describe how you would implement it, so that others can help?
     24 
     25 Best regards,
     26 Michael
     27 
     28 From matthieu.rakotojaona@gmail.com  Mon Feb  6 18:08:33 2012
     29 From: matthieu.rakotojaona@gmail.com (Matthieu Rakotojaona)
     30 Date: Tue, 7 Feb 2012 00:08:33 +0100
     31 Subject: [sup-devel] [Heliotrope/Turnsole] How to use IMAP?
     32 In-Reply-To: <1328560984-sup-7904@stapelberg.de>
     33 References: <1326062741-sup-6469@stapelberg.de>
     34 	<1326155913-turnsole-58321@terminus-est>
     35 	<1328560984-sup-7904@stapelberg.de>
     36 Message-ID: <CAMiZLn1UjG=Mnn3WtPVZFNh59K6r=kAfR-9B_zz3H6oBwRVM4A@mail.gmail.com>
     37 
     38 Hi,
     39 
     40 On Mon, Feb 6, 2012 at 9:45 PM, Michael Stapelberg
     41 <michael+sup at stapelberg.de> wrote:
     42 > It?s been four weeks, and https://github.com/wmorgan/heliotrope/issues/32 is
     43 > still open. Just to let you know: This is what?s stopping me from using
     44 > heliotrope+turnsole and possibly participating in its development at the moment
     45 > :-/.
     46 >
     47 > If it?s a task which is too big for your current spare time, could you please
     48 > describe how you would implement it, so that others can help?
     49 
     50 As far as I can tell, IMAP will not be implemented in heliotrope. I
     51 have started some work on a IMAP frontend which you can fork from :
     52 
     53 https://github.com/rakoo/imaptrope
     54 
     55 You use it as a separate process. It will create a RESTClient
     56 connected to heliotrope, and you just connect to it with classical
     57 IMAP clients.
     58 
     59 -- 
     60 Matthieu RAKOTOJAONA
     61 
     62 From michael+sup@stapelberg.de  Mon Feb  6 18:46:17 2012
     63 From: michael+sup@stapelberg.de (Michael Stapelberg)
     64 Date: Mon, 06 Feb 2012 23:46:17 +0000
     65 Subject: [sup-devel] [Heliotrope/Turnsole] How to use IMAP?
     66 In-Reply-To: <CAMiZLn1UjG=Mnn3WtPVZFNh59K6r=kAfR-9B_zz3H6oBwRVM4A@mail.gmail.com>
     67 References: <1326062741-sup-6469@stapelberg.de>
     68 	<1326155913-turnsole-58321@terminus-est>
     69 	<1328560984-sup-7904@stapelberg.de>
     70 	<CAMiZLn1UjG=Mnn3WtPVZFNh59K6r=kAfR-9B_zz3H6oBwRVM4A@mail.gmail.com>
     71 Message-ID: <1328571942-sup-6289@stapelberg.de>
     72 
     73 Hi Matthieu,
     74 
     75 Excerpts from Matthieu Rakotojaona's message of 2012-02-06 23:08:33 +0000:
     76 > As far as I can tell, IMAP will not be implemented in heliotrope. I
     77 > have started some work on a IMAP frontend which you can fork from :
     78 Uhm, that?s not what I am talking about. I want to fetch mails from an IMAP
     79 server and store them in heliotrope.
     80 
     81 Best regards,
     82 Michael
     83 
     84 From matthieu.rakotojaona@gmail.com  Tue Feb  7 07:27:32 2012
     85 From: matthieu.rakotojaona@gmail.com (Matthieu Rakotojaona)
     86 Date: Tue, 7 Feb 2012 13:27:32 +0100
     87 Subject: [sup-devel] [Heliotrope/Turnsole] How to use IMAP?
     88 In-Reply-To: <1328571942-sup-6289@stapelberg.de>
     89 References: <1326062741-sup-6469@stapelberg.de>
     90 	<1326155913-turnsole-58321@terminus-est>
     91 	<1328560984-sup-7904@stapelberg.de>
     92 	<CAMiZLn1UjG=Mnn3WtPVZFNh59K6r=kAfR-9B_zz3H6oBwRVM4A@mail.gmail.com>
     93 	<1328571942-sup-6289@stapelberg.de>
     94 Message-ID: <CAMiZLn17XrTzJswryKM-TJqu6RabvLEXpRzWzo9jY5z68g--Ng@mail.gmail.com>
     95 
     96 On Tue, Feb 7, 2012 at 12:46 AM, Michael Stapelberg
     97 <michael+sup at stapelberg.de> wrote:
     98 > Uhm, that?s not what I am talking about. I want to fetch mails from an IMAP
     99 > server and store them in heliotrope.
    100 
    101 Yes, you can use offlineimap to sync 2 IMAP servers, although this is
    102 still a work in progress. Or you can use 1-way copy tools, such as
    103 imapcopy[0].
    104 
    105 Oh, and heliotrope does tell you when it already has an email, based
    106 on its Message-Id header.
    107 
    108 [0] imapsync.lamiral.info/
    109 
    110 
    111 -- 
    112 Matthieu RAKOTOJAONA
    113 
    114 From michael+sup@stapelberg.de  Tue Feb  7 14:11:00 2012
    115 From: michael+sup@stapelberg.de (Michael Stapelberg)
    116 Date: Tue, 07 Feb 2012 19:11:00 +0000
    117 Subject: [sup-devel] [Heliotrope/Turnsole] How to use IMAP?
    118 In-Reply-To: <CAMiZLn17XrTzJswryKM-TJqu6RabvLEXpRzWzo9jY5z68g--Ng@mail.gmail.com>
    119 References: <1326062741-sup-6469@stapelberg.de>
    120 	<1326155913-turnsole-58321@terminus-est>
    121 	<1328560984-sup-7904@stapelberg.de>
    122 	<CAMiZLn1UjG=Mnn3WtPVZFNh59K6r=kAfR-9B_zz3H6oBwRVM4A@mail.gmail.com>
    123 	<1328571942-sup-6289@stapelberg.de>
    124 	<CAMiZLn17XrTzJswryKM-TJqu6RabvLEXpRzWzo9jY5z68g--Ng@mail.gmail.com>
    125 Message-ID: <1328641741-sup-6676@stapelberg.de>
    126 
    127 Hi Matthieu,
    128 
    129 Excerpts from Matthieu Rakotojaona's message of 2012-02-07 12:27:32 +0000:
    130 > Yes, you can use offlineimap to sync 2 IMAP servers, although this is
    131 > still a work in progress. Or you can use 1-way copy tools, such as
    132 > imapcopy[0].
    133 I use offlineimap to sync my IMAP server at home with my notebook (maildir) and
    134 that works fine.
    135 
    136 > Oh, and heliotrope does tell you when it already has an email, based
    137 > on its Message-Id header.
    138 Yes, but heliotrope-add does a full scan on every run, which takes hours
    139 (instead of seconds).
    140 
    141 I explained this in my original email and William acknowledged that code for
    142 this is just missing. I?m not sure what you are trying to say.
    143 
    144 Best regards,
    145 Michael
    146 
    147 From matthieu.rakotojaona@gmail.com  Tue Feb  7 16:54:08 2012
    148 From: matthieu.rakotojaona@gmail.com (Matthieu Rakotojaona)
    149 Date: Tue, 7 Feb 2012 22:54:08 +0100
    150 Subject: [sup-devel] [Heliotrope/Turnsole] How to use IMAP?
    151 In-Reply-To: <1328641741-sup-6676@stapelberg.de>
    152 References: <1326062741-sup-6469@stapelberg.de>
    153 	<1326155913-turnsole-58321@terminus-est>
    154 	<1328560984-sup-7904@stapelberg.de>
    155 	<CAMiZLn1UjG=Mnn3WtPVZFNh59K6r=kAfR-9B_zz3H6oBwRVM4A@mail.gmail.com>
    156 	<1328571942-sup-6289@stapelberg.de>
    157 	<CAMiZLn17XrTzJswryKM-TJqu6RabvLEXpRzWzo9jY5z68g--Ng@mail.gmail.com>
    158 	<1328641741-sup-6676@stapelberg.de>
    159 Message-ID: <CAMiZLn1au8xY9XHEdnBQLnTECfTxp+cshCWwfYm43abz7jhBTA@mail.gmail.com>
    160 
    161 Hi Michael,
    162 
    163 On Tue, Feb 7, 2012 at 8:11 PM, Michael Stapelberg
    164 <michael+sup at stapelberg.de> wrote:
    165 >  I?m not sure what you are trying to say.
    166 
    167 Ok, I think I know what you mean.
    168 
    169 You currently have a main IMAP server. You regularly sync it to your
    170 notebook in maildir with offlineimap. You would like to use this
    171 maildir directly with heliotrope. Right ?
    172 
    173 So here are two options I can see for you:
    174 * keep the maildir-backuping in a corner and sync your main IMAP
    175 server directly with imaptrope ("heliotrope's" IMAP interface). This
    176 would need two runs of offlineIMAP.
    177 * use offlineimap to sync your maildir to imaptrope. This might create
    178 problems, because the 2 syncings might interfere with each other.
    179 
    180 
    181 
    182 
    183 -- 
    184 Matthieu RAKOTOJAONA
    185 
    186 From wmorgan-sup@masanjin.net  Mon Feb 13 01:16:33 2012
    187 From: wmorgan-sup@masanjin.net (William Morgan)
    188 Date: Sun, 12 Feb 2012 22:16:33 -0800
    189 Subject: [sup-devel]  [Heliotrope/Turnsole] How to use IMAP?
    190 In-Reply-To: <1326062741-sup-6469@stapelberg.de>
    191 References: <1326062741-sup-6469@stapelberg.de>
    192 Message-ID: <1329113568-sup-8177@typhon>
    193 
    194 Excerpts from Michael Stapelberg's message of 2012-01-08 14:48:18 -0800:
    195 > What is the correct way to do this?
    196 
    197 Please try the latest heliotrope master. You can do a full import with this:
    198 
    199   ruby -Ilib bin/heliotrope-import -a <maildir> -d <mailstore> -t <state file>
    200 
    201 where <state file> is just a place for it to dump its state. This import need
    202 only happen once. Then for subsequent additions you can do this:
    203 
    204   ruby -Ilib bin/heliotrope-add -a <maildir> -d <mailstore> -t <state file>
    205 
    206 which will read to and write from that state file, and only add what it
    207 hasn't yet seen.
    208 -- 
    209 William <wmorgan at masanjin.net>
    210 
    211 From michael+sup@stapelberg.de  Wed Feb 22 21:41:42 2012
    212 From: michael+sup@stapelberg.de (Michael Stapelberg)
    213 Date: Wed, 22 Feb 2012 22:41:42 +0100
    214 Subject: [sup-devel] [Turnsole] Automatically displaying new mails?
    215 Message-ID: <1329946808-sup-8894@stapelberg.de>
    216 
    217 Hi,
    218 
    219 I am trying to use Turnsole for my mails, but I noticed that it never seems to
    220 pick up new mails until I hit refresh (@) manually. Is that intended or am I
    221 doing it wrong?
    222 
    223 It seems to me that leaving an HTTP connection open and having the server send
    224 chunks on it when it receives new messages is a good way of doing this.
    225 
    226 Best regards,
    227 Michael
    228 
    229 From michael+sup@stapelberg.de  Wed Feb 22 21:39:42 2012
    230 From: michael+sup@stapelberg.de (Michael Stapelberg)
    231 Date: Wed, 22 Feb 2012 22:39:42 +0100
    232 Subject: [sup-devel] [Heliotrope/Turnsole] How to use IMAP?
    233 In-Reply-To: <1329113568-sup-8177@typhon>
    234 References: <1326062741-sup-6469@stapelberg.de> <1329113568-sup-8177@typhon>
    235 Message-ID: <1329946381-sup-2255@stapelberg.de>
    236 
    237 Hi William,
    238 
    239 Thanks for adding code for this. I got the chance to test this today, and I?m
    240 afraid this doesn?t seem to be working as I would expect.
    241 
    242 As far as I can tell from glancing at the source and the state file, this code
    243 examines the date stored in every mail, sorts that, then checks where it
    244 stopped before, and continues from there. I think this is a horrible way of
    245 doing things for two reasons:
    246 
    247 1) It involves opening every single email on disk.
    248 2) Date specifications in emails are not to be trusted (think spam).
    249 
    250 For the time being, I let procmail save my messages in my IMAP server and in
    251 heliotrope with a little script, which I include here for others to see:
    252 
    253 #!/bin/bash
    254 # Delivers mail via dovecot and heliotrope
    255 
    256 # load RVM
    257 . /home/michael/.rvm/scripts/rvm
    258 
    259 TMPFILE=$(mktemp)
    260 
    261 cat > $TMPFILE
    262 
    263 cat $TMPFILE | sudo -u mail -- /usr/lib/dovecot/deliver -d michael
    264 cat $TMPFILE | ruby -I/home/michael/heliotrope/lib /home/michael/heliotrope/bin/heliotrope-add >>/tmp/last-mail.stdout 2>>/tmp/last-mail.stderr
    265 rm $TMPFILE
    266 
    267 After ensuring that it works, you should get rid of the stdout/stderr redirects
    268 or redirect them properly to a place with logfile rotation, of course.
    269 
    270 Note that adding mails via stdin doesn?t work until you change the code like this:
    271 https://github.com/wmorgan/heliotrope/pull/34
    272 
    273 Best regards,
    274 Michael
    275 
    276 From michael+sup@stapelberg.de  Wed Feb 22 21:57:35 2012
    277 From: michael+sup@stapelberg.de (Michael Stapelberg)
    278 Date: Wed, 22 Feb 2012 22:57:35 +0100
    279 Subject: [sup-devel] [Heliotrope] Equivalent of archived sources
    280 Message-ID: <1329947811-sup-7920@stapelberg.de>
    281 
    282 Hi,
    283 
    284 how would I get the same behavior as in sup when configuring a source to be
    285 archived by default (a mailing list which I receive for reference, not for
    286 actually reading it all the time)?
    287 
    288 Best regards,
    289 Michael
    290 
    291 From michael+sup@stapelberg.de  Wed Feb 22 22:00:27 2012
    292 From: michael+sup@stapelberg.de (Michael Stapelberg)
    293 Date: Wed, 22 Feb 2012 23:00:27 +0100
    294 Subject: [sup-devel] [Heliotrope] What exactly does reordering do? Is it
    295 	still necessary?
    296 Message-ID: <1329947900-sup-5773@stapelberg.de>
    297 
    298 Hi,
    299 
    300 I just realized that I forgot to import the maildir in which I store my sent
    301 messages. After adding them to heliotrope, do I have to reorder the index? What
    302 exactly does it do and why is that necessary?
    303 
    304 I?m a bit confused because commit
    305 https://github.com/wmorgan/heliotrope/commit/f7bfda9dd83db1b9cd2a51ba2599da81fc1b87c1
    306 talks about "reindex without --reorder".
    307 
    308 Best regards,
    309 Michael
    310 
    311 PS: The real time it takes to reorder my index is about 1 hour and 30 minutes :(
    312 
    313 From triumhiz@yandex.ru  Thu Feb 23 05:19:36 2012
    314 From: triumhiz@yandex.ru (Serge Z)
    315 Date: Thu, 23 Feb 2012 09:19:36 +0400
    316 Subject: [sup-devel] [Heliotrope] [Turnsole] ebuilds
    317 Message-ID: <20120223051936.2123.72633@localhost>
    318 
    319 
    320 Hi!
    321 
    322 Does anyone has ebuilds for heliotrope, turnsole or any related libraries?
    323 Tried to compose my own, but didn't manage to.
    324 
    325 From wmorgan-sup@masanjin.net  Thu Feb 23 06:34:29 2012
    326 From: wmorgan-sup@masanjin.net (William Morgan)
    327 Date: Wed, 22 Feb 2012 22:34:29 -0800
    328 Subject: [sup-devel]  [Heliotrope] Equivalent of archived sources
    329 In-Reply-To: <1329947811-sup-7920@stapelberg.de>
    330 References: <1329947811-sup-7920@stapelberg.de>
    331 Message-ID: <1329978718-turnsole-71233@terminus-est>
    332 
    333 Excerpts from Michael Stapelberg's message of 2012-02-22 13:57:35 -0800:
    334 > how would I get the same behavior as in sup when configuring a source to be
    335 > archived by default (a mailing list which I receive for reference, not for
    336 > actually reading it all the time)?
    337 
    338 I think the best way to do this would be to add some code to
    339 heliotrope-import that would allow overridding of labels on the
    340 commandline. Maybe something like --add-labels and --remove-labels
    341 options, that would modify whatever labels the source provides.
    342 Feel free to make an issue to track this.
    343 
    344 -- 
    345 William <wmorgan at masanjin.net>
    346 
    347 From wmorgan-sup@masanjin.net  Thu Feb 23 06:39:47 2012
    348 From: wmorgan-sup@masanjin.net (William Morgan)
    349 Date: Wed, 22 Feb 2012 22:39:47 -0800
    350 Subject: [sup-devel] [Heliotrope] What exactly does reordering do? Is it
    351 	still necessary?
    352 In-Reply-To: <1329947900-sup-5773@stapelberg.de>
    353 References: <1329947900-sup-5773@stapelberg.de>
    354 Message-ID: <1329978886-turnsole-20550@terminus-est>
    355 
    356 Excerpts from Michael Stapelberg's message of 2012-02-22 14:00:27 -0800:
    357 > I just realized that I forgot to import the maildir in which I store
    358 > my sent messages. After adding them to heliotrope, do I have to
    359 > reorder the index?
    360 
    361 Probably yes.
    362 
    363 > What exactly does it do and why is that necessary?
    364 
    365 Heliotrope only ever returns messages in the order in which they were
    366 indexed. So if you import mail from different sources, one after the
    367 other, unless those sources happen to be in chronological order, you
    368 will have to reorder.
    369 
    370 It's a little hard to see that this is happening because Turnsole
    371 reorders the items it displays (for complicated reasons), but you'll
    372 probably start to notice it as you paginate.
    373 
    374 > I?m a bit confused because commit
    375 > https://github.com/wmorgan/heliotrope/commit/f7bfda9dd83db1b9cd2a51ba2599da81fc1b87c1
    376 > talks about "reindex without --reorder".
    377 
    378 If the index ever becomes corrupted, it's nice to be able to rebuild it.
    379 That's the only real reason to do that. (Or maybe the index format
    380 changes in later releases, etc.)
    381 
    382 > PS: The real time it takes to reorder my index is about 1 hour and 30
    383 > minutes :(
    384 
    385 Sorry. But the point of indexing is to frontload all the work, so that
    386 import time (which has to only happen once) is slow, but search time is
    387 fast.
    388 
    389 -- 
    390 William <wmorgan at masanjin.net>
    391 
    392 From wmorgan-sup@masanjin.net  Thu Feb 23 06:26:44 2012
    393 From: wmorgan-sup@masanjin.net (William Morgan)
    394 Date: Wed, 22 Feb 2012 22:26:44 -0800
    395 Subject: [sup-devel]  [Turnsole] Automatically displaying new mails?
    396 In-Reply-To: <1329946808-sup-8894@stapelberg.de>
    397 References: <1329946808-sup-8894@stapelberg.de>
    398 Message-ID: <1329978326-turnsole-76268@terminus-est>
    399 
    400 Excerpts from Michael Stapelberg's message of 2012-02-22 13:41:42 -0800:
    401 > I am trying to use Turnsole for my mails, but I noticed that it never
    402 > seems to pick up new mails until I hit refresh (@) manually. Is that
    403 > intended or am I doing it wrong?
    404 
    405 You are correct. I haven't added this yet. Manual refresh is your only
    406 option. It shouldn't be too hard to add a simple polling mechanism.
    407 Feel free to make an issue for this.
    408 
    409 -- 
    410 William <wmorgan at masanjin.net>
    411 
    412 From wmorgan-sup@masanjin.net  Thu Feb 23 06:25:11 2012
    413 From: wmorgan-sup@masanjin.net (William Morgan)
    414 Date: Wed, 22 Feb 2012 22:25:11 -0800
    415 Subject: [sup-devel] [Heliotrope/Turnsole] How to use IMAP?
    416 In-Reply-To: <1329946381-sup-2255@stapelberg.de>
    417 References: <1326062741-sup-6469@stapelberg.de> <1329113568-sup-8177@typhon>
    418 	<1329946381-sup-2255@stapelberg.de>
    419 Message-ID: <1329977859-turnsole-79917@terminus-est>
    420 
    421 Excerpts from Michael Stapelberg's message of 2012-02-22 13:39:42 -0800:
    422 > Thanks for adding code for this. I got the chance to test this today,
    423 > and I?m afraid this doesn?t seem to be working as I would expect.
    424 > 
    425 > As far as I can tell from glancing at the source and the state file, this code
    426 > examines the date stored in every mail, sorts that, then checks where it
    427 > stopped before, and continues from there. I think this is a horrible way of
    428 > doing things for two reasons:
    429 > 
    430 > 1) It involves opening every single email on disk.
    431 > 2) Date specifications in emails are not to be trusted (think spam).
    432 
    433 My understanding of the Maildir specification is that there is no way to
    434 determine the order of messages besides reading the date headers.
    435 Ordering messages correctly at import time is important because
    436 Heliotrope only serves messages in the reverse order to which they were
    437 imported. If there is a better solution, please feel free to educate me.
    438 
    439 Is there any problem with the current code besides the fact that you
    440 don't like the big scan?
    441 
    442 > Note that adding mails via stdin doesn?t work until you change the code like this:
    443 > https://github.com/wmorgan/heliotrope/pull/34
    444 
    445 Merged, thank you.
    446 
    447 -- 
    448 William <wmorgan at masanjin.net>
    449 
    450 From wirtwolff@gmail.com  Thu Feb 23 06:38:27 2012
    451 From: wirtwolff@gmail.com (Wirt Wolff)
    452 Date: Wed, 22 Feb 2012 23:38:27 -0700
    453 Subject: [sup-devel] [Heliotrope] [Turnsole] ebuilds
    454 In-Reply-To: <20120223051936.2123.72633@localhost>
    455 References: <20120223051936.2123.72633@localhost>
    456 Message-ID: <1329978847-sup-4921@chigamba>
    457 
    458 Excerpts from Serge Z's message of Wed Feb 22 22:19:36 -0700 2012:
    459 > 
    460 > Does anyone has ebuilds for heliotrope, turnsole or any related libraries?
    461 > Tried to compose my own, but didn't manage to.
    462 
    463 I found ruby support on gentoo to be a bit of a nightmare. I would use
    464 rvm [1] to install instead, as user rather than globally if possible.
    465 
    466 [1] https://rvm.beginrescueend.com/
    467 
    468 Regards,
    469 
    470 W
    471 
    472 From michael+sup@stapelberg.de  Thu Feb 23 11:24:22 2012
    473 From: michael+sup@stapelberg.de (Michael Stapelberg)
    474 Date: Thu, 23 Feb 2012 12:24:22 +0100
    475 Subject: [sup-devel] [Heliotrope/Turnsole] How to use IMAP?
    476 In-Reply-To: <1329977859-turnsole-79917@terminus-est>
    477 References: <1326062741-sup-6469@stapelberg.de> <1329113568-sup-8177@typhon>
    478 	<1329946381-sup-2255@stapelberg.de>
    479 	<1329977859-turnsole-79917@terminus-est>
    480 Message-ID: <1329996040-sup-2419@stapelberg.de>
    481 
    482 Hi William,
    483 
    484 Excerpts from William Morgan's message of 2012-02-23 07:25:11 +0100:
    485 > My understanding of the Maildir specification is that there is no way to
    486 > determine the order of messages besides reading the date headers.
    487 > Ordering messages correctly at import time is important because
    488 > Heliotrope only serves messages in the reverse order to which they were
    489 > imported. If there is a better solution, please feel free to educate me.
    490 Well, I guess you are correct. So, when somebody sends me a spam email or a
    491 malicious email with a faked date, what happens? I think that the code will
    492 figure out it needs to re-add a lot of messages. Also, my index will need to be
    493 reordered, right?
    494 
    495 Also, what happens when somebody sends me a message with a faked date and I add
    496 it using heliotrope-add? Do I need to reorder my index?
    497 
    498 > Is there any problem with the current code besides the fact that you
    499 > don't like the big scan?
    500 That makes it sound like it?s just a matter of opinion. My concern is what I
    501 stated above (huge processing load / disk IO caused by malicious messages) and
    502 that it thrashes my poor disks.
    503 
    504 Best regards,
    505 Michael
    506 
    507 From triumhiz@yandex.ru  Fri Feb 24 05:19:07 2012
    508 From: triumhiz@yandex.ru (Serge Z)
    509 Date: Fri, 24 Feb 2012 09:19:07 +0400
    510 Subject: [sup-devel] [Heliotrope] why whistlepig?
    511 Message-ID: <20120224051907.5668.78469@localhost>
    512 
    513 
    514 Hi,
    515 
    516 subj.
    517 Why not xapian?
    518 
    519 Thanks
    520 
    521 From triumhiz@yandex.ru  Fri Feb 24 05:43:18 2012
    522 From: triumhiz@yandex.ru (Serge Z)
    523 Date: Fri, 24 Feb 2012 09:43:18 +0400
    524 Subject: [sup-devel] [Heliotrope] search for cyrillic terms does not work
    525 Message-ID: <20120224054318.8144.49786@localhost>
    526 
    527 
    528 Hi!
    529 I've submitted issue #36 at github.com on this problem.
    530 
    531 > Search for cyrillic terms does not work both in web-interface and turnsole.
    532 > 
    533 > The search term is present in utf-8 and windows-1251 encodings in different mails.
    534 > My system encoding is utf-8.
    535 > 
    536 > Ruby 1.9
    537 > 
    538 > Please inform if this is not an issue with ruby 1.8 or any other environment
    539 
    540 Can you please suppose why that could happen or offer a simple workaround?
    541 This issue is the only one which stops me from migrating to Heliotrope/Turnsole.
    542 
    543 I'd not got this problem with sup.
    544 
    545 From wmorgan-sup@masanjin.net  Sat Feb 25 06:35:32 2012
    546 From: wmorgan-sup@masanjin.net (William Morgan)
    547 Date: Fri, 24 Feb 2012 22:35:32 -0800
    548 Subject: [sup-devel] [Heliotrope/Turnsole] How to use IMAP?
    549 In-Reply-To: <1329996040-sup-2419@stapelberg.de>
    550 References: <1326062741-sup-6469@stapelberg.de> <1329113568-sup-8177@typhon>
    551 	<1329946381-sup-2255@stapelberg.de>
    552 	<1329977859-turnsole-79917@terminus-est>
    553 	<1329996040-sup-2419@stapelberg.de>
    554 Message-ID: <1330150790-turnsole-3005@terminus-est>
    555 
    556 Excerpts from Michael Stapelberg's message of 2012-02-23 03:24:22 -0800:
    557 > Well, I guess you are correct. So, when somebody sends me a spam email
    558 > or a malicious email with a faked date, what happens? I think that the
    559 > code will figure out it needs to re-add a lot of messages. Also, my
    560 > index will need to be reordered, right?
    561 
    562 You won't need to reorder. Importing is all incremental, at least if you
    563 use --state-file: it will keep track of the last message imported, and
    564 successive imports will only pick up new messages.
    565 
    566 But you are making me realize that the current maildir implementation is
    567 not right. I think the way to handle Maildir is to look only at the
    568 ctime of the files and not the date headers. That will make incremental
    569 importing possible (just save the filename of the last imported file,
    570 and look for all files newer than that). It will speed things up
    571 anyways.
    572 
    573 And if you're in the funny situation where the ctime is not correlated
    574 with the Date: headers in your files, which is perfectly possibly by the
    575 Maildir spec, then you will have to reorder after that initial import.
    576 But in reality that's a possibility with the other source types
    577 too---it's just more likely with Maildir.
    578 
    579 -- 
    580 William <wmorgan at masanjin.net>
    581 
    582 From wmorgan-sup@masanjin.net  Sat Feb 25 06:39:50 2012
    583 From: wmorgan-sup@masanjin.net (William Morgan)
    584 Date: Fri, 24 Feb 2012 22:39:50 -0800
    585 Subject: [sup-devel]  [Heliotrope] why whistlepig?
    586 In-Reply-To: <20120224051907.5668.78469@localhost>
    587 References: <20120224051907.5668.78469@localhost>
    588 Message-ID: <1330151741-turnsole-57719@terminus-est>
    589 
    590 Excerpts from Serge Z's message of 2012-02-23 21:19:07 -0800:
    591 > Why not xapian?
    592 
    593 At least as of a year ago when I looked at Xapian, the incremental
    594 indexing was painful (you had to keep a separate smaller corpus of
    595 additions, reindex it every time a new document was added, and merge
    596 when it got too big), doing anything outside of indexing MySQL rows was
    597 extremely painful (you had to use some weird XML format that I could
    598 never get quite right), and there was no way to have mutable arbitrary
    599 labels.
    600 
    601 I also prefer to keep everything in a single process, but that's
    602 not a hard requirement.
    603 
    604 -- 
    605 William <wmorgan at masanjin.net>
    606 
    607 From wmorgan-sup@masanjin.net  Sat Feb 25 06:42:57 2012
    608 From: wmorgan-sup@masanjin.net (William Morgan)
    609 Date: Fri, 24 Feb 2012 22:42:57 -0800
    610 Subject: [sup-devel]  [Heliotrope] search for cyrillic terms does not work
    611 In-Reply-To: <20120224054318.8144.49786@localhost>
    612 References: <20120224054318.8144.49786@localhost>
    613 Message-ID: <1330152007-turnsole-69593@terminus-est>
    614 
    615 Excerpts from Serge Z's message of 2012-02-23 21:43:18 -0800:
    616 > Can you please suppose why that could happen or offer a simple
    617 > workaround?  This issue is the only one which stops me from migrating
    618 > to Heliotrope/Turnsole.
    619 
    620 I'll have to look into it. Super-ascii search was definitely working at
    621 some point, so I'm not sure why there was a regression. You can help by
    622 trying to see whether the problem is in whistlepig or in heliotrope,
    623 e.g. by adding and querying Cyrillic documents in a whistlepig index of
    624 your own construction.
    625 
    626 -- 
    627 William <wmorgan at masanjin.net>
    628 
    629 From np@nicolaspouillard.fr  Sun Feb 26 15:37:28 2012
    630 From: np@nicolaspouillard.fr (Nicolas Pouillard)
    631 Date: Sun, 26 Feb 2012 16:37:28 +0100
    632 Subject: [sup-devel]  [Heliotrope] Equivalent of archived sources
    633 In-Reply-To: <1329978718-turnsole-71233@terminus-est>
    634 References: <1329947811-sup-7920@stapelberg.de>
    635 	<1329978718-turnsole-71233@terminus-est>
    636 Message-ID: <1330270255-turnsole-17000@ss>
    637 
    638 Excerpts from William Morgan's message of 2012-02-23 07:34:29 +0100:
    639 > Excerpts from Michael Stapelberg's message of 2012-02-22 13:57:35 -0800:
    640 > > how would I get the same behavior as in sup when configuring a source to be
    641 > > archived by default (a mailing list which I receive for reference, not for
    642 > > actually reading it all the time)?
    643 > 
    644 > I think the best way to do this would be to add some code to
    645 > heliotrope-import that would allow overridding of labels on the
    646 > commandline. Maybe something like --add-labels and --remove-labels
    647 > options, that would modify whatever labels the source provides.
    648 > Feel free to make an issue to track this.
    649 
    650 This would indeed be a really good idea. In particular to import folder
    651 by folder and set a label at the same time.
    652 
    653 (on of my first mails sent through turnsole)
    654 
    655 From michael+sup@stapelberg.de  Mon Feb 27 09:16:43 2012
    656 From: michael+sup@stapelberg.de (Michael Stapelberg)
    657 Date: Mon, 27 Feb 2012 10:16:43 +0100
    658 Subject: [sup-devel] [Heliotrope/Turnsole] How to use IMAP?
    659 In-Reply-To: <1330150790-turnsole-3005@terminus-est>
    660 References: <1326062741-sup-6469@stapelberg.de> <1329113568-sup-8177@typhon>
    661 	<1329946381-sup-2255@stapelberg.de>
    662 	<1329977859-turnsole-79917@terminus-est>
    663 	<1329996040-sup-2419@stapelberg.de>
    664 	<1330150790-turnsole-3005@terminus-est>
    665 Message-ID: <1330333805-sup-1287@stapelberg.de>
    666 
    667 Hi William,
    668 
    669 Sorry for clinging to that topic, but it?s important for me to properly
    670 understand it.
    671 
    672 Excerpts from William Morgan's message of 2012-02-25 07:35:32 +0100:
    673 > Excerpts from Michael Stapelberg's message of 2012-02-23 03:24:22 -0800:
    674 > > Well, I guess you are correct. So, when somebody sends me a spam email
    675 > > or a malicious email with a faked date, what happens? I think that the
    676 > > code will figure out it needs to re-add a lot of messages. Also, my
    677 > > index will need to be reordered, right?
    678 > 
    679 > You won't need to reorder. Importing is all incremental, at least if you
    680 > use --state-file: it will keep track of the last message imported, and
    681 > successive imports will only pick up new messages.
    682 Apparently, I didn?t properly describe the scenario I?m thinking about:
    683 
    684 state-file contains an entry "/my/maildir/2012-02-22-foo-bar", which is an
    685 email that contains 2012-02-22 as date.
    686 
    687 Now, a spammer sends me an email with a faked date, let?s say 2001-01-01, let?s
    688 call it "/my/maildir/2001-01-01-spam-mail". The next run of heliotrope-add has
    689 two possibilities:
    690 
    691 1) It will completely ignore it. I think this is what will happen, based on
    692    your description. This is horrible! Emails are absolutely not guaranteed to
    693    arrive in my system in the order they were sent. Is this the case? Do we
    694    ignore email because of date problems like this currently?
    695 
    696 2) It will pick up this email because the date inside is older. Subsequent runs
    697    will discover all email from the last 10 years as new, and try to re-add it
    698    to the index. Lots of unnecessary overhead.
    699 
    700 > But you are making me realize that the current maildir implementation is
    701 > not right. I think the way to handle Maildir is to look only at the
    702 > ctime of the files and not the date headers. That will make incremental
    703 > importing possible (just save the filename of the last imported file,
    704 > and look for all files newer than that). It will speed things up
    705 > anyways.
    706 Right, that sounds good.
    707 
    708 > And if you're in the funny situation where the ctime is not correlated
    709 > with the Date: headers in your files, which is perfectly possibly by the
    710 > Maildir spec, then you will have to reorder after that initial import.
    711 > But in reality that's a possibility with the other source types
    712 > too---it's just more likely with Maildir.
    713 So, let?s stick to my above example of the spam email and let?s assume that you
    714 changed the code to use ctimes. The spam mail arrives, its ctime is new, it
    715 gets picked up into my index. To my understanding, I now need to reorder. I
    716 have multiple questions:
    717 
    718 1) What are the immediate consequences? Where will this email appear in my
    719    inbox, when my inbox contains 5 emails. Always at the top? Bottom? You
    720    mentioned I can see the effect when paging. Can you elaborate please?
    721 
    722 2) How do I know when I have to reorder?
    723 
    724 Best regards,
    725 Michael
    726 
    727 From wmorgan-sup@masanjin.net  Wed Feb 29 01:11:56 2012
    728 From: wmorgan-sup@masanjin.net (William Morgan)
    729 Date: Tue, 28 Feb 2012 17:11:56 -0800
    730 Subject: [sup-devel] [Heliotrope/Turnsole] How to use IMAP?
    731 In-Reply-To: <1330333805-sup-1287@stapelberg.de>
    732 References: <1326062741-sup-6469@stapelberg.de> <1329113568-sup-8177@typhon>
    733 	<1329946381-sup-2255@stapelberg.de>
    734 	<1329977859-turnsole-79917@terminus-est>
    735 	<1329996040-sup-2419@stapelberg.de>
    736 	<1330150790-turnsole-3005@terminus-est>
    737 	<1330333805-sup-1287@stapelberg.de>
    738 Message-ID: <1330468308-turnsole-43856@terminus-est>
    739 
    740 Excerpts from Michael Stapelberg's message of 2012-02-27 01:16:43 -0800:
    741 > 1) It will completely ignore it.
    742 
    743 Correct. This is the problem that the ctime solution is meant to address.
    744 
    745 > So, let?s stick to my above example of the spam email and let?s assume
    746 > that you changed the code to use ctimes. The spam mail arrives, its
    747 > ctime is new, it gets picked up into my index. To my understanding, I
    748 > now need to reorder.  I have multiple questions:
    749 > 
    750 > 1) What are the immediate consequences? Where will this email appear in my
    751 >    inbox, when my inbox contains 5 emails. Always at the top? Bottom? You
    752 >    mentioned I can see the effect when paging. Can you elaborate please?
    753 
    754 Heliotrope will return it as the first result, since it returns messages
    755 in LIFO order.
    756 
    757 Currently Turnsole currently re-sorts all messages returned by sort by
    758 date, and so it will place it at the bottom. This is also where the
    759 pagination issues may come from. Maybe it would be less confusing for it
    760 to stick to search result order.
    761 
    762 > 2) How do I know when I have to reorder?
    763 
    764 You have to reorder whenever you want Heliotrope to return messages in
    765 Date header order instead of in LIFO order. I think this will typically
    766 happen when you import a couple batches of preexisting mail, and not
    767 when you're adding new mail.
    768 
    769 -- 
    770 William <wmorgan at masanjin.net>
    771 
    772 From triumhiz@yandex.ru  Wed Feb 29 10:44:13 2012
    773 From: triumhiz@yandex.ru (Serge Z)
    774 Date: Wed, 29 Feb 2012 14:44:13 +0400
    775 Subject: [sup-devel] [Heliotrope] search for cyrillic terms does not work
    776 In-Reply-To: <1330152007-turnsole-69593@terminus-est>
    777 References: <20120224054318.8144.49786@localhost>
    778 	<1330152007-turnsole-69593@terminus-est>
    779 Message-ID: <20120229104413.1197.73225@localhost>
    780 
    781 
    782 Quoting William Morgan (2012-02-25 10:42:57)
    783 >I'll have to look into it. Super-ascii search was definitely working at
    784 >some point, so I'm not sure why there was a regression. You can help by
    785 >trying to see whether the problem is in whistlepig or in heliotrope,
    786 >e.g. by adding and querying Cyrillic documents in a whistlepig index of
    787 >your own construction.
    788 
    789 Does whistlepig have any tool for manual managing its indexes?
    790 Or do I have to code in either ruby or C to do that?
    791